Factions in the village

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Labas, Granville board defend themselves against Telescope CEO Juckett, others in tense atmosphere

Editor’s Note: NYVTmedia, which includes the flagship Granville Sentinel and the Whitehall Times, conducted dozens of interviews over the first four months of this year in an effort to explore the subject of town and village governance in Washington County. The main article, Part 1 in a series, focuses primarily on the village of Granville. A second story looks at one woman’s fight with the town of Dresden, while a third story recaps information – sharing successes and shortcomings – elsewhere in the county. The second and third stories are at the end of the main article.

By Tim Farkas, NYVTmedia

At first glance, you’re mesmerized by the village’s charm.

On West Main Street, there’s a library and museum of natural history that was established more than a century ago and aims to inspire “wonder and discovery.”

On Quaker Street sits a small diner where smiling employees serve the best turkey sandwiches in town and know the names of most of their customers.

In the distance are the picturesque Adirondack Mountains and the bucolic Lakes Region of Vermont.

But outside of its daily magnetism, the 1.6-square-mile village has imperfections.

Blemishes. Blotches. Bruises.

Factions.

Welcome to Granville, New York – the Colored Slate Capital of the World – where two groups are passionately defending their actions and beliefs.

On one side are a company CEO, a former mayor and a longtime observer of the village board. On the other side are the current mayor and the board of trustees. On the outside are a political-science professor and others who feel strongly that governments in small-town America could be better.

‘HE BULLIES’

In Granville, the company CEO – Telescope Casual Furniture leader Kathy Juckett – and the former mayor, John Norton, are unhappy with current mayor Paul Labas and the village board. Juckett and Norton say Labas bullies people at village meetings and that the board lacks openness and transparency.

Kathy Juckett (Photo courtesy of Jeff Foley)

Juckett, who heads Telescope – a multimillion- dollar patio furniture company that is the largest private employer in the 2,404-resident village – told NYVTmedia in extensive interviews this spring and past winter that Labas tries to intimidate anyone who questions him at monthly board meetings.

“He bullies,” said Juckett, who often attends meetings. “He is running roughshod over the whole village. You don’t even question him. The mayor is running this town however he wants to.”

Juckett, CEO of 290-employee Telescope since 2001, said many residents have stopped speaking at meetings because “they’re intimidated by him (Labas) jumping down their throats.”

Norton, a longtime village resident who served as mayor from 1967 to 1969 and as a board member before that, agreed with Juckett about the bullying, saying: “He wants to be an authoritarian leader. Everything’s gotta be his way.”

The bullying claims were denied by Labas and the two board members who had phone or email conversations with NYVTmedia for this story – Dean Hyatt and Lisa Ackert.

“I treat people at the meetings the way that I am treated,” Labas said in an hourlong phone interview this spring. “If people want to treat me kindly and talk to me kindly and not be a bully over me, then I’m not going to bully back. I don’t like bullies. Period. I don’t care who you are. (But) if people think that they’re going to bully me, then I’m going to push back. . . . I’m not going to kowtow, be cowardly, sit in the corner. Especially when I know what I’m doing is for the best interests of the village of Granville.”

Also denied by Labas, Hyatt and Ackert were complaints about the board being a group of so-called yes men for Labas, along with criticisms about the board’s lack of openness. Among the transparency issues, Juckett has complained that meeting agendas weren’t on the Granville website – the major connector between the village and its citizens – until last spring. She also was angered that Labas said last year that public comment at meetings is “a privilege, and it is not a right.” Although state law verifies that, and public commenters are given five minutes to speak at board meetings in the village, Juckett said the mayor is taking the wrong approach.

“Is that a smart way to conduct business?” she asked about the “privilege” comment. “To isolate yourself from talking to your constituents?”

‘But you can definitely see mayors and supervisors who have a base of power and strong personalities, and when you have local factions, people who are their supporters think their behavior is perfectly acceptable. And then people who are on the other side of whatever the issue is, they see this person as a complete bully.’

Lisa Parshall
political science professor and
an expert on local and state government

The Telescope CEO said she has sent the board letters and emails aimed at improving transparency in the village. In all of that correspondence, Juckett said only Ackert – the newest member of the board, elected in March 2021 – has ever responded. The first time was to a letter last spring, in which Juckett complained about the meeting agendas not being online beforehand and about meeting minutes not being posted in a timely manner.

Juckett said Ackert got “chastised” for responding and was told not to, and Ackert confirmed to NYVTmedia by email that she “took some heat” for a “quick reply.”

In another transparency topic, NYVTmedia found that the village missed the two-week deadline for posting monthly meeting minutes once in the first four months of 2022 in a possible violation of the state’s Open Meetings Law.

The village also had no official Facebook, Twitter or Instagram pages through April, meaning it hasn’t reached the wide public audience available on social media and has closed itself off from many modes of communication.

And Norton, for one, would like to see more communication and back-and-forth among the board members. It was the ex-mayor who suggested the board is full of so-called yes men.

“None of the village board says anything,” Norton said. “They just sit there and nod their head when Paul says something.”

Norton said he thinks Labas “discourages” board members from speaking up. When asked if the members are “afraid” of Labas, Norton said he wasn’t sure.

Labas heads the five-member board, the governing body that also comprises Deputy Mayor Gordon Smith and trustee Dan Brown. Smith did not respond to multiple efforts to contact him for this story, Brown declined to comment, and Ackert provided feedback to NYVTmedia by email after saying she had been “advised” by someone close to her outside of the board to not have a recorded interview – on the phone or in-person – with the outlet.

Labas, who has presided over village successes – including a 0% tax increase for the first time in at least 30 years – said board members work well together, and he dismissed any rumblings that his colleagues might be intimidated by him.

“I don’t think that’s true at all. I’ve had discrepancies and discussions and people pushing back on issues that we bring up. I am not a dictator. Make that point very well and clear. I’m not Putin. . . . It’s not like I control this board,” said Labas, who narrowly defeated Bob Tatko in the 2019 mayoral election and said he plans to run again for the $6,000-a-year job next spring.

Hyatt laughed when asked if trustees are afraid to disagree with Labas. “I think that’s a joke,” Hyatt, who is in his 16th year as a trustee, said in a phone interview. “I know the mayor very well, and we agree to disagree quite a bit.”

‘WHY WOULD I DO THAT?’

Juckett, Norton and the longtime village board observer, who requested anonymity because the observer doesn’t want to become “embroiled in political controversy,” said they have experienced bullying from Labas firsthand.

John Norton (Photo courtesy of NYVTmedia)

“I have been on the receiving end of his lectures and have personally watched him intimidate citizens who are wishing to express an opinion different from his,” Juckett said.

She brought up an incident from “1½ or two years ago.”

“The first time I ever asked a question at a board meeting, I asked him about the Pember (Library and Museum), and he gave me a lengthy lecture and did not answer my question,” said Juckett, who didn’t recall her specific question. “I stood there while he talked and then responded that my question was not answered and asked it again. I did not get an answer the second time.”

Said the anonymous observer during a phone interview with NYVTmedia: “Sometimes Paul can be a bit of a hothead. Paul can hit a nerve. He can get a tone of condescension.”

Although the observer declined to talk about their personal bullying claim because it would compromise their identity, they did cite an interaction between Labas and Norton at the board meeting in May of last year, when, according to the meeting minutes, Norton said during the public comment session that he was “opposed to Board members participating in meetings via teleconference” because he believed in-person attendance was more effective.

At that meeting – and three of the previous four monthly meetings – Smith participated by teleconference. The minutes also said Norton “stated that he would like to hear reports from each Trustee at Board Meetings, as this was the way meetings were conducted when he was the Mayor.”

Norton, who has attended multiple board meetings as a citizen, told NYVTmedia he was “cut off” in his comments after a little over three minutes in the five that members of the public are given to speak. Explaining Labas’ ensuing response, the anonymous observer said: “Paul talked down to him. He used a tone. He repeated himself. He talked slowly.”

Norton, 98, agreed that Labas was condescending to him during the May 2021 meeting, saying: “Everyone who was there thought so, too.”

Norton said he thought the condescension “probably” was related to his age. He added, however, that Labas talks down to a lot of people in general.

‘They just sit there and nod their head when Paul says something.’

John Norton
former mayor of Granville

“He has been known for that,” Norton said. . . . “I’m an easy mark, I think.”

When informed about Norton’s comments regarding condescending behavior, Labas said: “If John feels I was talking down to him, that’s John’s opinion. I in no way was trying to talk down to anybody, and especially because he’s 98. Why would I do that? I respect that guy.

“I think John is one of the most valued citizens in this village of Granville. He’s a veteran. He’s good friends with my father, and my father’s brothers. … I have nothing but total and utmost respect for John Norton and his family.”

Hyatt told NYVTmedia that Labas is far from a bully.

“I do a lot of training when it comes to bullies and workplace harassment and all that stuff. I work for corporate America. And I can honestly say that Paul is not a bully,” said Hyatt, a facility manager for Six Flags.

Lisa Parshall, a political science professor at Daemen University in Amherst and an expert on local and state government, said she thinks bullying behavior by mayors and town supervisors happens but isn’t commonplace.

“It is in a minority subset of cases,” said Parshall, who has not studied the village of Granville. “But you can definitely see mayors and supervisors who have a base of power and strong personalities, and when you have local factions, people who are their supporters think their behavior is perfectly acceptable. And then people who are on the other side of whatever the issue is, they see this person as a complete bully.”

‘WE FOLLOW ALL THE RULES’

Labas said the claim by Juckett and Norton about the board lacking openness isn’t true.

“Absolutely not,” the mayor said. “And prove it if so. . . . I don’t know what we haven’t been transparent about. I can tell you this: We are not absolutely perfect, and you name me one government official (in the United States) that is absolutely perfect in everybody’s opinion.”

Mayor Paul Labas (Photo courtesy of NYVTmedia)

“Once again, I think it’s a bunch of nonsense,” Hyatt said. “We work together as a team, and we always have the best interests of the village at heart. The biggest thing we do is we always make sure we follow all the rules.”

The board observer who did not want to be identified said meetings aren’t as open as they once were.

“It used to be that someone could speak as long as they wanted, within reason,” they said. “Five minutes is too short. I think a 10-minute limit is more realistic.”

One of Juckett’s criticisms about transparency, starting last spring in a letter to the board, was that the village website didn’t contain board-meeting agendas in advance of the meetings for citizens who wanted to review the board’s business before arriving.

The board addressed that concern, and starting with the May 3, 2021, meeting, agendas have been posted before all village board meetings, with Labas pointing to public input as one of the reasons for the change.

Another of Juckett’s complaints was that the village website didn’t list individual village email accounts or phone numbers for each board member. Instead, all members had the same village contact information, limiting the public’s access to them. She said she asked them several times to add their contact information.

After numerous questions from NYVTmedia about the unspecific contact information listed, Juckett’s complaint was addressed in part this past April 13 when the village posted individual email addresses for all board members. The phone contact information did not change, however.

Rick Roberts, the village clerk, said the decision of whether to list individual contact information on the site is left to the board’s discretion.

Until the village changed the email addresses, Juckett said she had made repeated requests to have the expanded information listed for all board members.

‘I don’t know what we haven’t been transparent about. I can tell you this: We are not absolutely perfect, and you name me one government official (in the United States) that is absolutely perfect in everybody’s opinion.’

Paul Labas
mayor of Granville

“It is not just for me to use,” she said before the change was made. “It is for anyone who would like to discuss an issue regarding the village to have the option to communicate with any of the board members they feel most comfortable talking with. Aren’t they supposed to be representing the people of the village? Yet they don’t want to provide a way for anyone to contact them without going through the village clerk.”

After the email change was made, Juckett said she thought it was done because village officials were “nervous” about the town governance series that NYVTmedia was working on. Granville officials, meanwhile, attributed the addition to ease of communication afforded them by new laptop computers they had received through the village this year.

“No matter how they spin it, it doesn’t look good for them,” Juckett said. “A year for simple contact information. Really?”

An additional transparency complaint by Juckett involves the village’s “Rules of Procedure” for the monthly meetings. Juckett said she thinks the rules should be on the website, and as of late April of this year, they weren’t.

NYVTmedia obtained the rules for 2021, dated April 5 of that year, via a Freedom of Information Law request after Roberts wouldn’t turn over the four-page document without one.

The rules, which aren’t required under the state’s Open Meetings Law, list information such as the starting time for the village’s monthly meetings, board voting procedures, and guidelines for public comments, including the five-minute limit. In addition to the rules not being on the village website, there is no record of their approval by the board in April of last year in the meeting minutes.

The rules for 2022, which NVVT didn’t need to FOIL to obtain even though there were no changes from 2021, are dated April 4 and are listed in the minutes as having been approved that day, but they weren’t on the website as of late in the month.

Juckett said she thinks anything that could be requested through a FOIL filing should be on the village website.

“I’m looking to . . . put any information out there that is FOILable,” she said.

OPEN MEETINGS LAW

Unlike the board members, Roberts isn’t an elected official; he is appointed by the mayor. At meetings, he is in charge of writing the minutes.

According to Section 106 of the state’s Open Meetings Law, the minutes of meetings of each public governing body must be available to the public within two weeks of the meeting.

If the body has a “regularly and routinely updated” website and uses a high-speed internet connection, the minutes need to be posted on the site within the same time period, per an amendment made to the law on Nov. 8. That posting of minutes can come via written transcript, video recording or audio recording – all unabridged.

Minutes must be available to the public within two weeks of the meeting date even if they haven’t been approved by a governing body, according to the New York State Department of State.

Before its scheduled June meeting, Granville, whose website is regularly updated, had posted minutes for every monthly meeting since Labas took office three years ago, and an NYVTmedia review of the site through the first four months of 2022 showed that the village met its two-week deadline for the January, February and March meetings, but not for April.

Prior to the Open Meetings Law amendment on Nov. 8, Granville posted its minutes within two weeks of the village meetings in seven of the 10 months in 2021 leading up to the new date, according to information sent to NYVT by Sara Kelly, of Sara Kelly Graphics & Design in Cambridge, who maintains the village website. After the new law was signed, the village made the deadline for the final two months of the year.

Even when a municipality keeps the public informed in one part of the online spectrum, controversy can exist in another.

Last June, the tense relationship between village officials and officials of the 113-year-old Pember Library and Museum in Granville took center stage (The relationship between the two groups has been strained by debates about whether the Pember is a public or a private entity and also by personality clashes).

After hearing complaints from Juckett and local resident Rebecca Dittmeier in July that Hyatt’s positive comments about Pember chair Mary King and the impact of the Pember weren’t in the June minutes, the village board in August voted to amend those minutes by adding his remarks.

Roberts told NYVTmedia this year that the minutes were available for review at the village clerk’s office immediately after they were amended. However, the village didn’t post the new minutes online until four months later – after a NYVTmedia reporter asked Roberts about them.

“Apparently this was missed, but the official meeting minutes are kept here in the Clerk’s Office, not on the website,” Roberts said by email this past March. “The website postings are just (an) effort to keep the public informed.”

Juckett’s complaints at the July meeting about the Pember minutes followed her letter to the board last spring.

In telling NYVTmedia by email two months ago that she “took some heat” for responding on her own last spring to Juckett’s letter, Ackert said “it was felt that we should have answered as one unit, as a unified board.” Ackert later continued: “My response was accepted and we moved forward.”

Lisa Ackert (Photo courtesy of NYVTmedia photos files)

Ackert’s response to the letter was given to NYVTmedia by Juckett. The response said Juckett’s letter had made “valid points” about the need to improve transparency, including Juckett’s criticisms of meeting agendas not being posted in a timely manner.

In Juckett’s letter, she said more transparency would improve “public confidence in the legislative process.”

When asked why she thinks Labas and the board aren’t more open, Juckett said: “I don’t know. It makes you wonder what their motive is. They just don’t want to be questioned.”

Juckett continued: “I think he (Labas) works hard for the village. The only thing that I have fought with him about is transparency and openness, and he will fight to the death to not be transparent and open. But any reasonable person who encounters that level of resistance would wonder why. Is there something to hide?”

Labas responded to NYVTmedia by email, writing: “I can assure you that I don’t ‘fight’ to hide anything.”

Hyatt answered Juckett’s claim by saying he wishes “we could have this (phone) interview with Kathy with us so she could tell me exactly what we’re hiding.”

Parshall, meanwhile, said she thinks transparency issues in towns and villages are “rarely nefarious.”

“It’s a small minority of cases,” she said. “It could just be a lack of training. But from the perspective of the citizens, whether it’s nefarious or not, it doesn’t really matter. It could be a relatively mundane issue, but if it’s important to you . . . you expect local government to be responsive.”

Juckett said she isn’t looking for anything “underhanded – I’m looking for open and transparent government.”

In delving further into the CEO’s comment about why she thinks village officials are resistant to openness, Hyatt turned the tables, suggesting that Juckett wants to control village government.

“Maybe the biggest thing is maybe in the past, Kathy has always had her hand on the mayors and control (of) them. Maybe we have a mayor now that she can’t control. Maybe that’s the transparency problem she has.”

Juckett called Hyatt’s theory farfetched.

“That’s laughable,” she said. “Most communication with prior mayors has centered around the village making requests of me/Telescope to contribute to the needs of the village.”

Hyatt said he doesn’t like the “he-said, you-said, she-said hearsay.”

“We’ve got nothing to hide,” the trustee said. “At the end of the day, I’ve been on this board for quite a long time (and) . . . we’re just trying to make Granville a better place.”

As part of that effort, Labas and board members voted to make sure that village residents won’t see an increase in property taxes or water or sewer rates this year for the first time in at least three decades.

“I want to thank the board for working so hard on this,” the mayor said. . . . “It looks very good for the village of Granville.”

‘As the lone woman on the board, some may worry I will feel intimidated, and they shouldn’t. I do my homework.’

Lisa Ackert in March 2021

‘IT’S NOT EASY’

Hyatt said he would give the village board an “A” for its performance during Labas’ tenure. The trustee said he is most proud of the board’s work on the village budget since 2019 – “getting (it) under control, finding a way to cut costs, taking a closer look at how we do business, paying the bills, watching our expenses.”

“It’s not easy. You can take a major hit in sewer, you can take a major hit in the water,” Hyatt said of the rates. “You have to keep building up your rainy-day fund to offset that.”

Hyatt has worked under four mayors – Thomas Scott, Jay Niles, Brian LaRose and Labas. Hyatt complimented Labas for his performance and noted the mayor’s challenges.

“The bottom line is, if you want to get things done, you’re going to irritate a couple of people along the way. That’s just the nature of the beast. And I don’t care what it is in this day and age. It always seems to be that you’re never on the right side of an issue anyway.”

Hyatt praised Labas’ leadership.

“It hasn’t been easy going through COVID,” Hyatt said. . . . “At the end of the day, he’s done a good job. And the bulk of the people really think he’s doing an outstanding job. But there’s four or five people that don’t seem to think he’s doing a good job.”

Hyatt then was asked to compare Labas to the three other mayors he’s worked under.

“Well, I wouldn’t say he’s the most effective,” Hyatt said. “(But) I think he’s been very effective.”

According to the anonymous village observer, an ineffective part of Labas’ leadership is that he does too much of the talking at meetings.

“To some, he makes it look like he wants to be the center of attention,” the observer said.

Labas responded firmly to that opinion.

“I’m the mayor,” he said. “If they’ve got an issue with that, what’s their issue? I’m the one that everybody puts the blame on. . . . If anybody wants to talk in that meeting on my board, they’re more than willing to talk.”

Labas said he’s tired of the general criticism he has received from some members of the community.

“I’m sick of being accused and the board being accused,” the mayor said. … “Of the office constantly being under attack. When there’s nothing that has been done wrong. It’s all been for the good and the benefit of the village of Granville.”

Labas then criticized Juckett but followed with a compliment. And a lament.

“I think Kathy can bully people too,” he said. “If she said that, I’m going to say it too. But I do truly respect her as a business leader and a community representative and what she’s done for the village of Granville, and I’ve always considered her to be a good friend . . . And I can agree to disagree with her. Or at least I used to. Until tonight (the interview with NYVTmedia).”

Juckett laughed about Labas’ bullying comment and then said: “I’m not a bully, but I won’t be bullied, and that’s where his problem lies.”

‘I SEE NO WRONG DOING’

In addition to disagreeing with Juckett’s claim about Labas’ bullying, Ackert said the board isn’t hiding anything.

Juckett and Ackert discussed some of Juckett’s concerns in emails two months ago, and Juckett shared those emails with NYVTmedia.

“I see no wrong doing, no big illegal activity, no coercion and no bullying,” Ackert said in one of the emails. “We are strong minded board members . . . do you honestly think Paul would bully me? Do you think Dan would just do as Paul told him? Dean has spoken up many times with his personal feelings and take on things. Gordy has done this longer than all of us, and he debates Paul anytime he wants to.”

In March 2021, in a three-person race for two village board seats, Ackert – the challenger – and Smith, an incumbent who is the longest-serving board member, emerged victorious. Ackert received 167 votes, followed by Smith with 150 and incumbent Stephanie Munger with 87.

Ackert told NYVTmedia then that she was eager to start her new job.

“As the lone woman on the board, some may worry I will feel intimidated, and they shouldn’t. I do my homework,” she said.

One year later, Munger – who was replaced on the board by Ackert – didn’t respond to multiple attempts to reach her for this story. Neither did John Freed, a Granville resident whom Labas considers a supporter, although Freed did praise the board at its April 4 meeting by saying about 2022 during the public comment session: “I just want to congratulate the board on a 0% (tax) increase. I think that’s pretty amazing. . . . I’m just really, really impressed.”

Along with being proud of the board’s work in preventing a tax increase, Labas said the village is in “really good shape” financially. And in his 2022 State of the Village address in January, the mayor touted the board’s accomplishments for 2021, including the repaving of State Route 149 in most of the village, the expansion of the holiday decorating program, and a tax increase (0.47%) that had been the lowest in years.

Amid the criticisms by Juckett and Norton and the anonymous observer of the village board, however, Ackert declined in emails several one-on-one phone or in-person interview requests from NYVTmedia.

Ackert added in a later email to NYVT: “When I got on this board there had been a lot of negativity in the air around town. My goal was to see that stop. I was told by community members (that I’m sure have spoken to you), that Paul and Rick were not to be trusted and that I should find a smoking gun . . . I’m paraphrasing here.”

She later continued: “I have been on the board a year – and I came in not knowing Paul or Rick well at all, and with eyes wide open. I give everyone a fresh start, and I don’t take on other people’s prejudice. I haven’t seen any red flags that they had claimed I would. That made them angry, and now they all hate me for not helping them take down Paul and Rick.”

Rick Roberts (Photo courtesy of NYVTmedia)

‘I DON’T THINK IT’S A JOKE’

In August, three months after the Norton-Labas episode, Labas angered Juckett by saying in an article by NYVTmedia that public-comment sessions are “a privilege” and “not a right.”

“It’s a time for the public to comment and provide their input,” the mayor continued. “It is not a public question-and-answer session.”

Although state law stipulates that public comments are not a right, Juckett questioned the mayor’s sense of connection to village residents. In the phone interview this spring, Labas defended himself by citing the law.

“It is there. It’s right there in the book,” Labas said, referring to the handbook of the New York State Conference of Mayors and Municipal Officials (NYCOM), an organization that provides training and education for local officials.

Labas said the five-minute limit for the public to speak at meetings is state law, not a village board rule.

“The Open Meetings Law states five minutes; that’s what it is,” the mayor said.

However, in reviewing the law, NYVTmedia found no mention of a time limit. Juckett, meanwhile, gave a heated response to Labas’ remark about his reliance on NYCOM to guide the village’s protocol on public comments.

‘I think he (Labas) works hard for the village. The only thing that I have fought with him about is transparency and openness, and he will fight to the death to not be transparent and open. But any reasonable person who encounters that level of resistance would wonder why. Is there something to hide?’

Kathy Juckett
CEO of Telescope Casual Furniture

“Show me in the NYCOM handbook where it recommends not being accessible to your constituents or not allowing
your constituents to speak to you,” she said. “The only thing that I have asked for from them from Day 1 is openness and transparency. And they have fought me every step of the way. They think transparency is a joke, and I don’t think it’s a joke.”

Parshall said she thinks the majority of towns and villages in New York are “below average” in terms of transparency. She said
she bases her opinion in part on a few studies that have been done.

One report she cited was published in March 2021 by the nonpartisan New York Coalition for Open Government and was titled “Village Governments Across New York State Provide Limited Information To The Public.”

The coalition’s study reviewed the websites of 20 village governments in the state – none in Washington County – and included four criteria: the posting of all meeting minutes in 2020, the posting of meeting agendas for February 2021, the posting of meeting documents for the same month, and allowing public comments during meetings.

According to the study, only 10% of the villages earned an “A” grade, while 15% got a B, 25% a D and 50 percent an F.

Had the village of Granville been included in the coalition’s survey, Labas said he probably would have given the website “a B or a C” grade.

“It does need some improvement; I’m not going to deny that,” the mayor said, adding that he plans to personally put more time into the website along with hiring someone to help.

However, on the same day, Labas said he doesn’t “even go on” the village website.

Parshall, meanwhile, said the New York Coalition for Open Government’s survey and other small studies she’s seen show that “municipalities are kind of all over the map on transparency metrics. There is a great deal of variability.”

She went on to compare larger and smaller areas.

“There isn’t a general rule about transparency, but smaller areas tend toward the more informal practice of interaction with the public,” Parshall said. “They’re probably lagging in their web resources.”

Parshall said government websites are “pretty dismal” in some smaller areas.

Lisa Parshall (Photo courtesy of voice.daeman.edu)

In November, a failure in Granville was inaccurate information.

For the village board meeting that month, three different starting times were listed on the website in advance of the meeting. The time was listed at 8 p.m. in one spot, 7 p.m. in another and 6:30 p.m. in a third place. The latter time was correct.

Labas apologized for the mistake during the meeting. He also commented, per the minutes: “As the meeting was well-attended and no one had seemingly arrived late, apparently Village constituents were clear on the date and time of the meeting.”

TRAINING . . . AND THE COURTS

Parshall said she thinks all local politicians could benefit from training.

According to its website, NYCOM offers several opportunities for elected officials, including webinars, workshops and a “fall training school” in Saratoga Springs this September.

Labas said he’s been to two training sessions held by NYCOM, while two others were canceled because of COVID-19.

Peter Baynes, NYCOM’s executive director, declined to tell NYVTmedia how many elected officials from the village had attended any of the group’s training sessions in the past three years, either in person or remotely.

“That’s between us and our members,” Baynes said.

Labas said Ackert didn’t undergo any training after she was elected to the board last spring. He added that no training was available because of COVID restrictions, and he did not mention webinars.

When asked if there were plans to send Ackert to any training sessions as a one-year member of the board, Labas said: “I can tell you that Lisa is very well-informed. Lisa gets as much information and training as she can from the public office that she’s holding. . . . She basically is getting on-the-job training, as with many trustees that get elected to this village. When somebody gets elected, we don’t send them to college. That’s not how it works.”

Maybe the biggest thing is maybe in the past, Kathy has always had her hand on the mayors and control (of) them. Maybe we have a mayor now that she can’t control. Maybe that’s the transparency problem she has.’

Dean Hyatt
Granville village board member

While formal training for board members doesn’t appear to be high on Labas’ list of priorities, it could be for the courts.

According to the Open Meetings Law, if the two-week deadline for having meeting minutes available to the public isn’t met by a municipality, any “aggrieved” person could sue.

If a court determined the law was violated, it could require the members of the governing body to participate in a training session concerning its obligations to the public.

Despite the legal path available to citizens, the New York Coalition for Open Government concluded in its March 2021 study that the Open Meetings Law is “weak and in need of improvement.”

The study stated that “most people are shocked to learn” that the law does not mandate the live-streaming of meetings, the posting of meeting videos online, and that the public must be heard at public meetings. The coalition also said “there is no entity with the power to monitor and enforce compliance with the law.”

In October, seven months after the study was published, Gov. Kathy Hochul signed legislation aimed at boosting transparency in local government. The new law requires documents that are going to be discussed at open meetings to be made available upon request or posted on the government’s website at least 24 hours before the meeting.

“New Yorkers should be informed about the work government does for them every day, but we have to make it easier for them to get that information,” Hochul said in a news release.

Coalition president Paul Wolf told NYVTmedia in an interview this spring that although the new law is a welcome change, it’s a minor change.

“The law has been for the past 10 or 12 years that if you have a website that’s regularly updated, you’re supposed to post your meeting documents online before your meeting occurs,” he said. “But there was no time period included in that.

“The change in the law was just to say that you have to do it now at least24 hours before a meeting. That additional time period is certainly helpful but isn’t a major change. Ideally, I think it should be 72 hours.”

In its study, the coalition emphasized in its criticism of the Open Meetings Law that: “The reality is that other than citizen lawsuits which are expensive and difficult to undertake, there is no entity that ensures compliance.”

The coalition said state legislation that would provide enforcement power to the state’s Committee on Open Government would be “a great benefit to addressing the clear lack of compliance with the Open Meetings Law identified in this report.”

The committee, part of the NYS Department of State, acts in an advisory role for governments, the public and the media on open
meetings, Freedom of Information Law and the Personal Privacy Protection Law.

The New York Coalition for Open Government noted in its report that the attorney general in neighboring Massachusetts investigates citizens’ open-government complaints and by law has the power to levy $1,000 fines on local governments that violate the law.

Even though the coalition explains that AG websites in Massachusetts and some other states contain information about open-meetings laws along with forms in which to file a complaint, no such information or documents exist on the New York AG site or on the website of the Committee on Open Government.

The coalition goes on to state that the New York attorney general and the state comptroller “have broad powers . . . which could be used to educate, monitor and report local government officials that are not complying with the Open Meetings Law.”

“We would welcome the attorney general and the state comptroller becoming more involved, as statewide elected officials, with open government matters,” the report states.
But before any matters get to state offices, the coalition wants villages to fix any transparency problems they have.

“We hope that village officials will take corrective action to post their meeting minutes, meeting agendas and documents, which will provide more information to the public and allow for meaningful public participation in village proceedings,” the study concluded.

‘DO THE RIGHT THING’

Wolf lamented in the interview with NYVTmedia that although “nothing has changed” on the New York AG website since his group’s study came out, the comptroller has made strides because that office has audited some school district websites for a lack of transparency.

In one of those audits, of the George Junior Republic Union Free School District in Freeville, the comptroller found in March that the district failed to post the necessary financial budgets and board meeting minutes about the district.

The comptroller’s office ended its audit by saying George district officials “agreed with our findings and recommendations and indicated they have initiated or planned to take corrective action.”

Wolf said the New York Coalition for Open Government will release a follow-up transparency study, probably in October, to see “whether local governments are complying with the new changes in the law – posting meeting documents online 24 hours before, and posting meeting minutes or a recording within two weeks.”

Wolf said he wasn’t sure which area of government the coalition would focus on in its new study, or which locations it would survey. Juckett, meanwhile, said transparency should come down to one utopian principle.

“Villages and towns just need to do the right thing,” she said. “They need to put their constituents first. We should be leading by example.”

Tim Farkas is a staff writer and editor for NYVTmedia who has worked at The Orange County Register, The Seattle Times, the News & Observer in Raleigh, N.C., and other Pulitzer Prizewinning newspapers during his four-decade career in the media.

Dresden officials respond to criticisms

By Tim Farkas, NYVTmedia

The village of Granville isn’t the only place in Washington County where elected officials have responded after being criticized.

In a letter to the editor published by NYVTmedia in February, Dresden resident Anda Stipins-Gang accused the town council, including supervisor Paul Ferguson, of misogyny and ageism.

Stipins-Gang, the wife of former Dresden supervisor George Gang – who lost the position to Ferguson in the 2017 November election – began her letter by saying: “It’s 2022, and ageism and misogynism continue in Dresden’s town board.”

She went on to write that she has “experienced both personally” and has seen it “when our town clerk brings up important topics to the town board.”

Stipins-Gang, 70, told NYVTmedia inApril that Ferguson and some council members ignore older people and women when they speak at meetings.

“It’s in one ear and out the other,” she said. “They move on like nothing was said.”

When asked this spring if he thinks misogyny and ageism are problems on the board, council member Marc Brown replied: “No comment.”

Councilor Edwin Raymond denied the claims by Stipins-Gang and also said there were no problems in general on the five-member board.

“The board works excellent as a team,” Raymond said. “I haven’t heard any complaints.”

Ferguson did not respond to several emails and calls seeking comment on any of Stipins-Gang’s criticisms, and council member John Barber Jr. could not be reached for a response.

In her letter to the editor, Stipins-Gang also complained that council members were “hostile toward anyone who dares question them.”

“The board, except for one member, never asks questions of Ferguson. Why? Disagreements should not stop the decision- making process, rather they often open doors for greater discussion,” she wrote.

Dresden board member Allen Wilbur agreed that his colleagues often frown on any dissension on the council, telling NYVTmedia: “They don’t like it when I ask questions.”

Much of the contention on the council occurs because some members don’t do their research before making propositions, said Wilbur, whose wife, Marcinda, is the town clerk and tax collector.

“If you read your law book, it would go a lot easier than just jumping forward with something without knowing what the law is,” he said. “Sometimes they act with emotion instead of common sense.”

Brown, who joined the governing body this year, said he hopes he and his fellow council members can come up with a way to work together.

“We need to figure out what’s best for our town,” Brown said.

In Stipins-Gang’s mind, Ferguson is at the top of the blame list for many of Dresden’s problems. She pointed out one issue near the end of her letter to the editor.

“We pay (his) salary as town supervisor. We also pay county taxes that are used to pay Ferguson to attend county committee meetings. Why did he miss three months of county meetings this past summer?” she wrote. “It’s all public information, and I’ve obtained his attendance record at the county using FOIL (Freedom of Information Laws). We are not getting what we pay for.”

In a separate quest in 2019, Stipins-Gang went to court in an effort to force Dresden to release details she had requested about the town budget. She got the records and said the court ordered Dresden to pay her attorney fees but didn’t demand any training for town officials.

Stipins-Gang said little has changed since her legal victory.

“They seem to have an aversion to learning,” she said of town officials.

NYVTmedia correspondents contributed to this report.

Ups, downs in info that’s available across county

By Tim Farkas, NYVTmedia

‘As you have seen, our website is in need (of being) upgraded, and I hope it will be taken care of soon.’

John Rozell
Whitehall town supervisor

Some municipalities fare better than others in the amount of information they make available to the public, according to a survey by NYVTmedia.

The outlet looked at three Washington County locations outside of the village of Granville (see “Factions in the village”) twice this year – in February and April – in a random survey of websites and social media pages, vehicles that serve as the main conduits between municipalities and their citizens.

In Hebron, two phone numbers – home/cell and office – were listed for town supervisor Brian Campbell in those two months, and home numbers also were listed for the four other council members. Individual email addresses were listed for three of the five council members.

When informed that the town’s website contained considerable contact information compared to some other sites, Campbell said council members thought providing residents with easy means of communication was the right move.

“They all want to be informed and accomplish the people’s business,” he said. “Every time I get a new board member, I always ask for the contact info they want included on the website. No one is reluctant because they want to hear any constituents’ concerns.”

Despite the contact information made available by Hebron, the town in late April had no minutes posted from any monthly meetings, and it listed only one meeting agenda – for the already held April 11 event. Hebron also had no official presence on Facebook, Twitter or Instagram.

“We are working on so many projects right now that I have slipped in getting that to fruition,” Campbell said of the minutes. “We are headed that direction (in posting them).”

In Whitehall, the town website didn’t have individual contact information – email or phone number – for any of its five board members in February. Asked then if this information would be added, supervisor John Rozell said an upgraded website was in the works. As part of that project, he said he planned to ask all board members whether they wanted to provide their personal information.

“As you have seen, our website is in need (of being) upgraded, and I hope it will be taken care of soon,” he said.

As of late April, no new contact information for board members had been added to the site. Also missing was the online agenda for the town’s monthly meeting on Feb. 16.

Under a recent amendment signed into law by Gov. Kathy Hochul, the state’s Open Meetings Law holds that government bodies must post agendas on their website at least 24 hours before a public meeting, and minutes need to be online no later than two weeks after the meeting as long as the governments have a website that is “regularly and routinely updated.”

Gov. Kathy Hochul (Photo courtesy of Kathy Hochul’s Twitter page)

Perceived violations could be pursued in court by any “aggrieved” person, according to the law.

In Whitehall, no agenda was on the website before the February meeting, although agendas were available at the sign-in table for people attending in person.

As for meeting minutes, the town has not posted any on its website since October.

On social media, Whitehall had no official Facebook, Twitter or Instagram pages.

In Dresden in February, home phone numbers were listed on the town website for three of the five council members, but no individual email addresses were given. In April, the site contained individual home numbers for all council members but still no specific email addresses.

Like many other municipalities, Dresden had no official presence on Facebook, Twitter or Instagram through April.

Lisa Parshall, a political science professor at Daemen University in Amherst and an expert on local government, said social media efforts vary in towns and villages across the state.

“Some of them do very well maintaining official social media pages that regularly publish content,” she said. “Then there are other localities where any social media pages are nonexistent or only sporadically posted.

“It’s (an) issue where I think too it’s a bit of the ‘Wild West’ – some localities are very savvy, or have savvy employees to manage these; others are muddling through or lack skill sets to do social media well.”

Even though Parshall said the official web pages of towns and villages are still where citizens can find most of the information about governing decisions, she thinks the majority of those municipalities are “below average” in terms of transparency.

Dresden is one of the places that have fallen short on the web. For example, town clerk/tax collector Marcinda Wilbur said minutes from the Feb. 14 monthly meeting wouldn’t be posted on the town’s website until after approval at the March 13 meeting, meaning that posting fell outside of the state’s two-week stipulation.

Meanwhile, agendas for the February meeting weren’t posted beforehand, and they weren’t out for people who attended in person.

For the latter omission, Wilbur pointed at supervisor Paul Ferguson.

“(He) is the one who usually handles that,” Wilbur said. “Generally they are printed up and available on the table for people at the meeting. But as long as their tax bills are manageable, residents don’t care what you’re doing at the meetings. This is how it appears, anyway. It’s hard to get people involved in town politics.”

One person who does get involved is Anda Stipins-Gang, a Dresden resident.

Stipins-Gang, the wife of ex-town supervisor George Gang, who lost the office to Ferguson in the 2017 election, wrote a letter to the editor to NYVTmedia in February that explained how difficult it was to contact Ferguson, elaborating that when a call was placed to town hall, the phone rang 10 times until a prompt arose saying the messages were full and to use an access code.

“This has happened for months,” Stipins-Gang wrote. “No one can leave a message. Why? This limits our access to him; obviously, he does not want to be contacted.”

Ferguson did not respond to several NYVTmedia emails and calls seeking a response to the resident’s letter. The outlet also tried to call the town-hall number several times and encountered the same phone problems that Stipins-Gang described.

In another letter to the editor, in April, she criticized the town for having an outdated meeting notice on its website.

“The Town of Dresden’s next regular monthly meeting will be held Monday, March 14, at 7 p.m. at the Dresden town hall,” Stipins-Gang wrote. “Today is April 11, 2022! Why is last month’s meeting still listed on our town website? . . . Just another example of the sloppy work on the part of the town supervisor.”

A check of the website on April 17 showed that the next monthly meeting (May 9)
was listed. Wilbur said that posting information online is “just a matter of sending the info to the person who maintains it,” a volunteer.

Also in Dresden, NYVTmedia on Feb. 18 made its first of several failed attempts to obtain the town’s “Rules of Procedure” for its monthly meetings. The rules generally list information such as the starting time, guidelines for public comment and council voting procedures.

On March 26, five weeks after the outlet’s first inquiry, Ferguson said by email: “The Town of Dresden has not found the rules of procedure. We have put this in the town attorney’s hands to adopt new policies.”

Municipalities in New York aren’t legally required to have the rules.

“Local governments have a fairly significant amount of discretion under state law to operate how they want and to define their own rules of operation,” said Jon Alexander, legislative director for New York State 45th District Senator Dan Stec, whose district includes part of Washington County.